Dr.Gargoyle
Jul 12, 09:45 AM
Er...have you seen the MacBook Pro pricing? The MacBook pricing? The iMac pricing? The Mini pricing? (Which went UP by a fair amount). If you're thinking that x86 processors are cheaper than PPC, you're sadly mistaken. Cheap computers being cheap has just about nothing whatsoever to do with the CPU....
--Eric
What I wrote was that after the PPC->x86 transition, it is easier to compare Apples prices with other manufactures selling PCs with the same hardware configuration as Apple. This has nothing to do with the price of the processor. The transition has made it possible to compare apples to apples. For example, if you compare the price of a MBP with a PCs with same hardware configuration, you will see that the prices are about the same. I suspect that MacPro will be priced in the same ball park as high-end PC workstations.
--Eric
What I wrote was that after the PPC->x86 transition, it is easier to compare Apples prices with other manufactures selling PCs with the same hardware configuration as Apple. This has nothing to do with the price of the processor. The transition has made it possible to compare apples to apples. For example, if you compare the price of a MBP with a PCs with same hardware configuration, you will see that the prices are about the same. I suspect that MacPro will be priced in the same ball park as high-end PC workstations.
~Shard~
Oct 28, 10:32 AM
I don't know if Intel ever changed it, but one of the historical reasons you couldn't make a scalable multi-cpu x86 system is that x86s did bus snooping. Once you got more than ~3-4 x86s on the same bus the bus would be saturated by snooping traffic and there would be little room for real data. I think that's why Intel is pushing multi-core so much, it's a hack to work around Intel's broken bus. The RISC cpus (MIPS et al) didn't do that, that's why all the high cpu count systems used them.
Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the info. :cool:
Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the info. :cool:
Mord
Jul 13, 11:00 AM
the single xeon configs i was refering to were netburst based ones.
memory:
a pair of 512 sticks for woodcrest is 200 bucks (FB-dimm 4200)
a pair of 512 sticks for conroe is about 140 bucks (ddr2 5300)
thus the 60 buck retail difference translates to about a 35-40 buck difference in bulk apple prices.
a 2.4GHz conroe costs $316
a 2.33GHz woodcrest costs $455
$139 difference, to apple allot less probably about 50 or so due to the huge discounts they will be getting from intel (and don't tell my the bulk 1000 prices are the discounts as they are nearly identical to newegg prices)
motherboard:
their are not too many of these about so their is rather a mark up
350 bucks for woodcrest
250 bucks for a 975X
again to apple the difference is allot less about 20 bucks manufacturing, their is a huge mark up mobo's are just printed out. for apple the difference will only be in the chipset and maybe extra ram slots if they made two
i was a bit off in the cpu price difference, but thats the one part which apple will get for the best price.
selling SMP rigs with one cpu is commonplace as it gives a low entry price, to make a whole SKU is just silly.
apple tried the powermac mini as it were and you did not buy it, it was called the g4 cube.
memory:
a pair of 512 sticks for woodcrest is 200 bucks (FB-dimm 4200)
a pair of 512 sticks for conroe is about 140 bucks (ddr2 5300)
thus the 60 buck retail difference translates to about a 35-40 buck difference in bulk apple prices.
a 2.4GHz conroe costs $316
a 2.33GHz woodcrest costs $455
$139 difference, to apple allot less probably about 50 or so due to the huge discounts they will be getting from intel (and don't tell my the bulk 1000 prices are the discounts as they are nearly identical to newegg prices)
motherboard:
their are not too many of these about so their is rather a mark up
350 bucks for woodcrest
250 bucks for a 975X
again to apple the difference is allot less about 20 bucks manufacturing, their is a huge mark up mobo's are just printed out. for apple the difference will only be in the chipset and maybe extra ram slots if they made two
i was a bit off in the cpu price difference, but thats the one part which apple will get for the best price.
selling SMP rigs with one cpu is commonplace as it gives a low entry price, to make a whole SKU is just silly.
apple tried the powermac mini as it were and you did not buy it, it was called the g4 cube.
nixd2001
Oct 12, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by ddtlm
The result for my OSX 10.2 DP 800 G4 on the floating test is 85.56 seconds. I used -O and -funroll-loops as flags.
So this is about 45% the speed of my P3-Xeon 700. Not very good at all, but it falls within the ream of believeability.
Other than a -O to enable/disable any optimisations at all, what effect can you achieve with the remaining optimistion flags to GCC? I'm more surprised by the lack of variation they achieve on PPC than the actual relative performance - having looked at the PPC code briefly, it looks like I'd expect it to be slow :mad:
The result for my OSX 10.2 DP 800 G4 on the floating test is 85.56 seconds. I used -O and -funroll-loops as flags.
So this is about 45% the speed of my P3-Xeon 700. Not very good at all, but it falls within the ream of believeability.
Other than a -O to enable/disable any optimisations at all, what effect can you achieve with the remaining optimistion flags to GCC? I'm more surprised by the lack of variation they achieve on PPC than the actual relative performance - having looked at the PPC code briefly, it looks like I'd expect it to be slow :mad:
takao
Mar 13, 06:47 AM
It won't be an issue. Please refer to my previous post in this thread.
I feel like the fear mongering done by the international media is just unreal-- is everyone that uneducated?
well flooding the inner containment vessel with seawater + added boric acid is by all means an absolute last resort option in any playbook
(hardly a DIY solution: many reactors have the option and external connectors to do just that)
afterall they don't even know the situation inside because the temperature sensors aren't working anymore
also since that water can't be exchanged directly it means that they might have to cool the containment construction from the outside with additional water
obviously it won't be a disaster on the scale of chernobyl but it is already high up on the scale of disasters (6 reactors without cooling, 2 core meltdowns), it's pretty much confirmed that nuclear material has been spilled even if it was just hydrogen blowing up the external construction
it shouldn't be forgotten IMHO that a lot of radition will be spilled in the clean up progress (not only radiation: boric acid is actually quite toxic)
as a consequence the german government for example is already thinking about taking back their early decision to extend the use of their current nuclear plants
edit: according to some reports the evacuation zone was extended to 20 km
edit: don't forget that reducing the heat of a molten core might take quite some time so i wouldn't call the danger off as well: even when being cooled it still might have just enough remaining heat to melt through the bottom of the pressure chamber. i suspect we will know more in 24 hours
I feel like the fear mongering done by the international media is just unreal-- is everyone that uneducated?
well flooding the inner containment vessel with seawater + added boric acid is by all means an absolute last resort option in any playbook
(hardly a DIY solution: many reactors have the option and external connectors to do just that)
afterall they don't even know the situation inside because the temperature sensors aren't working anymore
also since that water can't be exchanged directly it means that they might have to cool the containment construction from the outside with additional water
obviously it won't be a disaster on the scale of chernobyl but it is already high up on the scale of disasters (6 reactors without cooling, 2 core meltdowns), it's pretty much confirmed that nuclear material has been spilled even if it was just hydrogen blowing up the external construction
it shouldn't be forgotten IMHO that a lot of radition will be spilled in the clean up progress (not only radiation: boric acid is actually quite toxic)
as a consequence the german government for example is already thinking about taking back their early decision to extend the use of their current nuclear plants
edit: according to some reports the evacuation zone was extended to 20 km
edit: don't forget that reducing the heat of a molten core might take quite some time so i wouldn't call the danger off as well: even when being cooled it still might have just enough remaining heat to melt through the bottom of the pressure chamber. i suspect we will know more in 24 hours
roland.g
Sep 20, 09:56 AM
Since iTV most likely wont be a DVR device, I coughed up $700 today for a Sony DVR instead.
I am sure Apple has a brilliant plan for the iTV, but I fail to see it.
iTV is a great product. If you want a DVR, buy a DVR, if you want the next level of streaming, iTV is it. I already use Airtunes alot. It is hooked up to my stereo. Anytime I'm out in the yard or having a BBQ, I just plug in the Express and some speakers out back and stream music there.
I personally don't buy tv shows and movies, but I like the idea of being able to code anything video into iTunes and view it on my tv along with slideshows, music, trailers.
I am sure Apple has a brilliant plan for the iTV, but I fail to see it.
iTV is a great product. If you want a DVR, buy a DVR, if you want the next level of streaming, iTV is it. I already use Airtunes alot. It is hooked up to my stereo. Anytime I'm out in the yard or having a BBQ, I just plug in the Express and some speakers out back and stream music there.
I personally don't buy tv shows and movies, but I like the idea of being able to code anything video into iTunes and view it on my tv along with slideshows, music, trailers.
javajedi
Oct 11, 12:26 PM
What you are saying makes a lot of sense. Now that I think about, I too recall reading this somewhere.
Now that we know the real truth about the "better standard FPU", I thought it was time to shed some light on non vectorized G4 integer processing.
It still does 200,000,000 calculations, but this time I'm multiplying ints.
Motorola 7455 G4@800Mhz: 9 seconds (Native)
IBM 750FX G3@700Mhz: 7 seconds (Native)
Intel P4@2600Mhz 2 seconds (Java)
PowerPC 7455 integer processing is consierabley better than floating point (obviously less work doing ints), but still less per cycle than the Pentium 4.
Very intresting the G4 looses both floating point and integer to the IBM chip, at a 100MHz clock disadvantage.
I'm still waiting to see that "better standard FPU" in the G4. It seems the G4 is absolutely useless unless you are fortunate to have vectorized (AltiVec) code.
Now that we know the real truth about the "better standard FPU", I thought it was time to shed some light on non vectorized G4 integer processing.
It still does 200,000,000 calculations, but this time I'm multiplying ints.
Motorola 7455 G4@800Mhz: 9 seconds (Native)
IBM 750FX G3@700Mhz: 7 seconds (Native)
Intel P4@2600Mhz 2 seconds (Java)
PowerPC 7455 integer processing is consierabley better than floating point (obviously less work doing ints), but still less per cycle than the Pentium 4.
Very intresting the G4 looses both floating point and integer to the IBM chip, at a 100MHz clock disadvantage.
I'm still waiting to see that "better standard FPU" in the G4. It seems the G4 is absolutely useless unless you are fortunate to have vectorized (AltiVec) code.
DelisleBA.info
Apr 12, 10:38 PM
And so is this new version $299 which is a deal compared to the $999 for FCS. Heck MSRP on FCE is $199 so with a student discount this new version is very reasonably priced. Which leads me to think this is probably a stand alone app and it does not include all the goodies of FCS like DVD Studio Pro, Compressor, etc..
Is this correct thinking?
And if so does this mean that FCS will be broke into apps? How much for the other apps?
Hurry up and wait, the apple way.
Is this correct thinking?
And if so does this mean that FCS will be broke into apps? How much for the other apps?
Hurry up and wait, the apple way.
arkitect
Apr 15, 11:27 AM
Sorry, getting tough to keep track of who I'm quoting here. ;)
Well please don't mis attribute that vile anti-gay message to me.
Thanks.
Well please don't mis attribute that vile anti-gay message to me.
Thanks.
mi5moav
Sep 20, 08:29 AM
I have a feeling that Apple and Disney are going to partner up on this ITV and somehow integrate MovieBeam into it. I am sure there are already plans in the work. Disney has cut the price on this great technology and this is one piece of technology I wouldn't give up. So, much better then running to the store and the definition of the movies are great. For $52 bucks you get you own video Store. Decent prices on rentals. A lot better then $299 no way will I get iTV but for $199 with moviebeam built in it's possible.
munkery
May 2, 01:02 PM
As with all malware that doesn't achieve privilege escalation via exploitation, this will not be very widespread or successful.
BTW, Windows already has far more privilege escalation vulnerabilities this year alone as Mac OS X over it's lifespan.
This type of malware will no longer work in Safari once Webkit2 is released given the scripting engine will run as a seperate process that is sandboxed (similar to Chrome). The scripting engine does not run as a separate process in IE.
Also, check out the links in my sig for more security tips. Then, PM me your credit card number (obviously, this is a joke).
BTW, Windows already has far more privilege escalation vulnerabilities this year alone as Mac OS X over it's lifespan.
This type of malware will no longer work in Safari once Webkit2 is released given the scripting engine will run as a seperate process that is sandboxed (similar to Chrome). The scripting engine does not run as a separate process in IE.
Also, check out the links in my sig for more security tips. Then, PM me your credit card number (obviously, this is a joke).
Edge100
Apr 15, 10:20 AM
Everything is hate to people like you. It makes it impossible to have any kind of conversation.
Difference of opinion != Hate
Putting homosexuality down to the choice of a "hip counterculture" is hateful, because it completely trivializes the issue.
Real people's lives are being snuffed out because of who they are; these are kids that will never get a chance to do all of the things that make this life so great.
Your words are hateful because they further marginalize. I am a heterosexual man, and I did not choose to be one. My best friend is a homosexual man, and he did not choose to be one. Yet he had to endure an unending fear of violence for who he was, and I did not.
I don't even care if you don't like homosexual people; you're free to do that. But don't trivialize the situation; these people are dying for who they are, and that should shock and disturb every last one of us.
Difference of opinion != Hate
Putting homosexuality down to the choice of a "hip counterculture" is hateful, because it completely trivializes the issue.
Real people's lives are being snuffed out because of who they are; these are kids that will never get a chance to do all of the things that make this life so great.
Your words are hateful because they further marginalize. I am a heterosexual man, and I did not choose to be one. My best friend is a homosexual man, and he did not choose to be one. Yet he had to endure an unending fear of violence for who he was, and I did not.
I don't even care if you don't like homosexual people; you're free to do that. But don't trivialize the situation; these people are dying for who they are, and that should shock and disturb every last one of us.
Sounds Good
Apr 11, 09:50 AM
So what is it that you and your family like about the iOS devices? Why did you choose them over a WinMo device? Why haven't you gone over to Windows Phone 7?
Because I had never used a smart-phone before the original iPhone came out. So I was pretty blown away by what a smart-phone could do, and over the years I got accustomed to iOS. Now it would be weird to switch to a Windows phone -- or even an Android phone for that matter.
Same thing with the computer, I guess. I used Windows first, got accustomed to how everything works, and I happen to LIKE the way it works.
Believe me, the temptation to try a Mac hasn't gone away. But so far I honestly can't seem to find a true advantage to doing it -- other than to satisfy a curiosity.
Because I had never used a smart-phone before the original iPhone came out. So I was pretty blown away by what a smart-phone could do, and over the years I got accustomed to iOS. Now it would be weird to switch to a Windows phone -- or even an Android phone for that matter.
Same thing with the computer, I guess. I used Windows first, got accustomed to how everything works, and I happen to LIKE the way it works.
Believe me, the temptation to try a Mac hasn't gone away. But so far I honestly can't seem to find a true advantage to doing it -- other than to satisfy a curiosity.
TuckBodi
May 12, 10:12 AM
WTF? Why do people buy phones without knowing if they work in their areas first? If I went by what people say on these boards, I'd have bought a Verizon phone that wouldn't work in my area, and on a phone that's crap....
STOP MAKING PURCHASING DECISIONS BASED ON OTHER PEOPLES OPINIONS!
Maybe you can help me out...I bought my 2G iPhone the day it was released. I did my research and knew I was going to lose a few bars going from T-Mo to AT$T. At home (where I work) I was getting 3 bars, which was 'okay.' A year later it dropped a bar and a year after that it dropped another bar+. I've swapped out phones and etc. AT$T continues to blame me, Apple, my trees, my microwave and even my fridge.
About 2 months ago I was finally creeping up to the 2-3 bar range and was again getting okay service. Then all of a sudden, about a week ago, I'm back to 1 bar and multiple dropped calls a day. What gives?
In the meantime I've been doing my *research* on Verizon and hoping Apple finally makes the jump in June.
STOP MAKING PURCHASING DECISIONS BASED ON OTHER PEOPLES OPINIONS!
Maybe you can help me out...I bought my 2G iPhone the day it was released. I did my research and knew I was going to lose a few bars going from T-Mo to AT$T. At home (where I work) I was getting 3 bars, which was 'okay.' A year later it dropped a bar and a year after that it dropped another bar+. I've swapped out phones and etc. AT$T continues to blame me, Apple, my trees, my microwave and even my fridge.
About 2 months ago I was finally creeping up to the 2-3 bar range and was again getting okay service. Then all of a sudden, about a week ago, I'm back to 1 bar and multiple dropped calls a day. What gives?
In the meantime I've been doing my *research* on Verizon and hoping Apple finally makes the jump in June.
1tigerlivejob
May 8, 01:12 AM
there pretty reliable I had them for 5 years now
jchung
Mar 18, 11:22 AM
I can't blame AT&T one bit for trying to protect their network. And as some have already said, those who are trying to game the system are hurting those of us who are being honest by bloating the network unnecessarily.
I can blame AT&T for this because they don't account for data usage properly.
See this thread on Apple's forums - http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2450738
If AT&T could account for data usage properly and show their customers what was using the data, then I would say ALMOST say its ok for AT&T to do this (other than the fact they just automatically sign you up instead of having you opt in).
I can blame AT&T for this because they don't account for data usage properly.
See this thread on Apple's forums - http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2450738
If AT&T could account for data usage properly and show their customers what was using the data, then I would say ALMOST say its ok for AT&T to do this (other than the fact they just automatically sign you up instead of having you opt in).
LagunaSol
Apr 28, 08:54 AM
GUI interfaces are a fad. Mouse-based input is a fad. The Internet is a fad. Touch computing is a fad.
Beware the observations of the Old Guard.
Beware the observations of the Old Guard.
pika2000
Mar 18, 03:00 AM
This is why I bought the Nexus One.
Although I'm afraid I might be forced to let go my grand-fathered unlimited data plan in the near future. Does anybody know if adding a line and converting both it and my line into a family plan will kick me out of the grand-fathered unlimited data plan?
Although I'm afraid I might be forced to let go my grand-fathered unlimited data plan in the near future. Does anybody know if adding a line and converting both it and my line into a family plan will kick me out of the grand-fathered unlimited data plan?
The Beatles
Apr 9, 12:49 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8C148 Safari/6533.18.5)
Ahhh. A Gamer. Thanks.;) What you are seeing is called RDF. That field will not be around forever.
Ahhh. A Gamer. Thanks.;) What you are seeing is called RDF. That field will not be around forever.
chrono1081
Apr 5, 10:16 PM
Actually, I do think this would bug me. I love that I have all of my most used programs (Word, Excel, Photoshop, Lightroom, Notepad, etc, plus one particular folder) right there for easy access with 1 click of the Start button -- yet hidden away completely out of sight (until I click on Start). I also love having quick access to my "Recent Items" list, to quickly open a file I was recently working on.
How are the above 2 things done on a Mac?
eek... I use "alt-tab" and "copy & paste" A LOT! :eek:
Doesn't Mac have these things too? :confused:
For the applications, they are all right at your fingertips at the dock or if you want them hidden and want to access them at an instant you can put them in a stack. Think of a stack like the windows start menu, but faster (and it doesn't have to be programs it can be anything).
As for alt+tab and copy and paste people are making it out to be an issue and its not. Use command + tab instead of alt tab, and command + c for copy, and command + v for paste. Its different at first but then you get use to it. I now like command better than control since command is next to the spacebar and is easier to reach.
Also, its perfectly easy to go up file structure levels in Finder, just customize your tool bar (see image)
Anyway I switched from Windows to Mac 3 years ago (because Vista pre service pack 1 couldn't handle large file transfers) and haven't looked back. It was the best move I made (and I fix Windows desktops and servers for a living). Now I can't stand using Windows anymore. I'm much more productive on a Mac.
How are the above 2 things done on a Mac?
eek... I use "alt-tab" and "copy & paste" A LOT! :eek:
Doesn't Mac have these things too? :confused:
For the applications, they are all right at your fingertips at the dock or if you want them hidden and want to access them at an instant you can put them in a stack. Think of a stack like the windows start menu, but faster (and it doesn't have to be programs it can be anything).
As for alt+tab and copy and paste people are making it out to be an issue and its not. Use command + tab instead of alt tab, and command + c for copy, and command + v for paste. Its different at first but then you get use to it. I now like command better than control since command is next to the spacebar and is easier to reach.
Also, its perfectly easy to go up file structure levels in Finder, just customize your tool bar (see image)
Anyway I switched from Windows to Mac 3 years ago (because Vista pre service pack 1 couldn't handle large file transfers) and haven't looked back. It was the best move I made (and I fix Windows desktops and servers for a living). Now I can't stand using Windows anymore. I'm much more productive on a Mac.
edifyingGerbil
Apr 24, 04:47 PM
Are the action of a few countries a representative of Islam?
the actions of "a few countries" that are many miles apart (so by all rights should have different cultures) but have one thing in common, ie islam, are a representation of the effects of islam.
islam is unpleasant and, i guess for want of a better word, evil.
the actions of "a few countries" that are many miles apart (so by all rights should have different cultures) but have one thing in common, ie islam, are a representation of the effects of islam.
islam is unpleasant and, i guess for want of a better word, evil.
Howdr
Mar 18, 01:10 PM
Look I'm not childish or demanding I just disagree with the way At&t has sucked many of us into the Unlimited plan from the beginning. After a time we all had it and they came out with the secrete 5GB idea. You want posts of me complaining back in 2008? Why ? I don't have to prove anything to anyone to state my opinion and dislike of the policy.
Don't point the finger at me and say I'm stealing, I paid for my internet use every month for over 3 years now.
I'll cut back on the righteous talk if the finger pointing stops.
I do not tether on a regular basis and have not for 6 months.
I do not Download with my phone except apps and docs.
I agree there can be abuse even with unlimited
(ie: the people who claim 90 and 120Gb a month DL)
You feel your right,
I feel I'm right,
we disagree, end of story :cool:
Also At&t will do this from time to time and unless something changes that stops them there is nothing we can do about it.
Don't point the finger at me and say I'm stealing, I paid for my internet use every month for over 3 years now.
I'll cut back on the righteous talk if the finger pointing stops.
I do not tether on a regular basis and have not for 6 months.
I do not Download with my phone except apps and docs.
I agree there can be abuse even with unlimited
(ie: the people who claim 90 and 120Gb a month DL)
You feel your right,
I feel I'm right,
we disagree, end of story :cool:
Also At&t will do this from time to time and unless something changes that stops them there is nothing we can do about it.
javajedi
Oct 13, 05:48 PM
ddtlm,
I have my theory as to why java took the lead over C in the sqrt example. There is quite a common misconception about Java that it's always slow, and there is a reason for it. Back in the early days prior to 1.2, it wasn't uncommon to see something like we did here run 10,20, or even 30 times slower then C. VM's today (1.4 /w hotspot) are much smarter than they were years ago. IMO, Hotspot makes the conventional "just in time compilers" look like a thing of the past.
Anyways, when you really think about it, Java really has an extra card up it's sleeve. Sure we tell GCC we want max optimizations, (03, etc), but GCC is limited to compile-time optimization. I think since java has adaptive runtime optimizations, specifically hotspot, the runtime optimization is what really makes the difference.
The reason why it's called "HotSpot", is literally because it looks for "hot spots" by profiling on the fly at runtime. Pretty cool, huh? Your first adaptive optimizations kick in second time the loop is ran. Not to mention the conventional JIT optimizations... code will natively compile and so you eliminate the costly overhead of bytecode translations.
Lastly, I am going to do the matrix operation you spoke about, I have to finish up some course work, so I may not get to it tonight, but as soon as I can devote some time to it, I will.
I have my theory as to why java took the lead over C in the sqrt example. There is quite a common misconception about Java that it's always slow, and there is a reason for it. Back in the early days prior to 1.2, it wasn't uncommon to see something like we did here run 10,20, or even 30 times slower then C. VM's today (1.4 /w hotspot) are much smarter than they were years ago. IMO, Hotspot makes the conventional "just in time compilers" look like a thing of the past.
Anyways, when you really think about it, Java really has an extra card up it's sleeve. Sure we tell GCC we want max optimizations, (03, etc), but GCC is limited to compile-time optimization. I think since java has adaptive runtime optimizations, specifically hotspot, the runtime optimization is what really makes the difference.
The reason why it's called "HotSpot", is literally because it looks for "hot spots" by profiling on the fly at runtime. Pretty cool, huh? Your first adaptive optimizations kick in second time the loop is ran. Not to mention the conventional JIT optimizations... code will natively compile and so you eliminate the costly overhead of bytecode translations.
Lastly, I am going to do the matrix operation you spoke about, I have to finish up some course work, so I may not get to it tonight, but as soon as I can devote some time to it, I will.
*LTD*
Apr 28, 08:05 AM
Then they should include it in such #'s when it WILL be one not while it's not don't you think?